May 28 2009

California, Proposition 8 and anyone against gay marriage!

Published by at 3:00 am under I Don't Get It,Jerks,Why?!?

gay marriage prop 8

I’m going to keep this short because this subject literally elevates my heart rate to a dangerous level.

There really is absolutely no reason we should have to debate gay marriage. Not only is it un-American to deny this right, it is inhumane. Why the fucking fuck would anyone give a shit if two people who love each other want to get married?!? It’s so ridiculous that I honestly can barely gather my thoughts enough to finish this.

The fact that two people get married, whether they be straight or gay, has nothing to do with your existence. Life will go on exactly the same so worry about your happiness and don’t deny others theirs.

One more thing, if you support gay marriage and are straight you should still be out there protesting. This is an issue of basic civil rights and we should stand together.

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42 comments so far

42 comments to “California, Proposition 8 and anyone against gay marriage!”

  1. 8bitheroon 28 May 2009 at 4:23 am

    Any government that opposes gay marriage is participating in state sanctioned discrimination. Simple as that.

    Gay marriage bans are a clear violation of the Bill of Rights:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

    Gay marriage bans are laws based on religious precepts. America is not a Christian nation.

    “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…” – The Treaty of Tripoli

    Gay marriage bans are clearly illegal, but the religious honestly feel that they will save the world.
    It disgusts me to be an American and THIS is the problem so many people get behind. Forget the homeless, hungry, and suffering – the religious need to spend MILLIONS on this.

    I am ashamed to be a veteran in this day and age.

  2. CreatureofHabiton 28 May 2009 at 6:26 am

    It’s disgusting and Californians should be mortified. Gay marriage has been legal for 5 years in MA, and it started off with 39% approval rating. Now it is at 62% approval rating. If people don’t believe in gay marriage, they shouldn’t go to the wedding. How dare they decide to take it to a level of state and federal discrimination.

    On a lighter note, I read that Iowa invited all the disenfranchised to move to Iowa where they “offer equal rights for all citizens”. I thought that was clever, though I don’t see people rushing to give up the sunshine state for the corn huskers. Lol.

  3. jasonon 28 May 2009 at 6:50 am

    8bithero, I agree with your ideals but not sure that the agrument is valid. I believe that everyone should have the opportunity to be miserable reguardless of who they would like to be miserable with for the rest of their lives. I don’t think you should ever feel ashamed for the service you provided for this country. This country has some issues and gay marriage is one of them but in some other countries homosexuality can be punishable by death. This country gives away billions of dollars every year in aide to foreign countries and often neglicts millions here at home. I agree that a person should be able to marry anyone they want as long as both parties are consenting adults and love one another.

  4. LLGon 28 May 2009 at 8:01 am

    Can anyone hardly be surprised? We’re trying to push progress on the minds of the bigoted, self-righteous, and ignorant. And rarely does it work with passivity.

    This world, I say world, not country, is no stranger to oppression. Jews were enslaved in Egypt. Romans persecuted Christians and took *just* a couple of centuries to even legalize its practice. England’s Catholics burned Protestants at the stake for heresy (I’ve always found that amusingly ironic – “you believe in my god! die!!”). Colonizers stole land and murdered Native Americans. India has an entire caste system of oppression written into Hinduism. It took most countries to accept suffrage movements until the early 20th century. Up until fifty years ago, blacks were separate but equal in this country. And there’s more, so much more…

    And we are surprised yet again that few of us learn from past mistakes. We’d like to think that now in the 21st century, we’ve bid farewell to the savagery of human rights struggles. But we haven’t. Over three thousand African-Americans were lynched between 1882-1968 as a result of that decade’s civil rights movement. And if we think we can use rationality, facts, …. in truth, common sense to change the minds of Prop 8 supporters in CA, those in AZ, FL, every other state…, we’re kidding ourselves. A forecast of violent dissonance is in store for us, I think. A group of people can only be oppressed for so long before something breaks. Do I think we’re going to see a resurgence of lynchings? No. But I think a wave of anger and frustration will sweep this country. Apparently, it’s just not time yet. APPARENTLY, not enough of us are angered and frustrated by this.

    In fifty years, reactions to gay marriage will be equivalent of those towards bi-racial couples today – unless we’ve drowned in evangelical hell. And the thought of oppressing such a thing will seem ridiculous to a the vast majority. I just wonder what we’ll be fighting over then…

    equal rights for the orange people, perhaps?

  5. LLGon 28 May 2009 at 8:05 am

    Hmmm… 1882-1968 is a decade…

  6. You Just Made My List!on 28 May 2009 at 8:08 am

    8bit – Agreed, the amount of money wasted on this fight by the religious right is sickening.

  7. You Just Made My List!on 28 May 2009 at 8:11 am

    LLG – Orange people do not deserve ANY civil rights!

  8. Saraon 28 May 2009 at 8:21 am

    Church ——————- State

    note seperation

  9. J W Rossonon 28 May 2009 at 8:36 am

    The religulous(yes I spelled it the way I want)is ran by bigotry and hate of people that follow other paths, they are paranoid and have no regard for compassion.If you are not with em your agin them!! Fuck the religulous right.

  10. Perryon 28 May 2009 at 8:55 am

    Listy, as a heterosexual man, I completely agree. Everything in this update is right on the mark. This issue constantly gets my attention because it’s simply a debate over basic civil liberties.

    Every time I hear one of these assclowns speak out against gay marriage I think, “OK…..but how does that affect YOU?”

    I’m just sick and tired of people telling other people how they should live their lives. Being gay does not hurt anyone at all. Gay people are decent citizens just like everyone else and if we deny them their rights all we’re doing is giving the world the impression that we’re stupid, insensitive and unevolved.

    Gays should be allowed to marry and the government should stay the fuck out of everyone’s lives. End of story.

    Great post, Listman!

  11. You Just Made My List!on 28 May 2009 at 9:43 am

    Great comments everyone. I’m proud of my readers!

  12. SanFranon 28 May 2009 at 10:43 am

    I commute through the Castro district every single day to and from work. The other night, it was certainly enraged (but still partying hard)… People here, it seems (and I have many non-hetero and very dear friends), are considering this an obnoxious bump in the road, and seem, once again, empowered to fight on. Granted, protesting here in San Francisco is somewhat useless, because it’s preaching to one big choir – it’s an event for the TV cameras beaming elsewhere. The fight needs to happen in Salt Lake City, in Orange County, in the red states, in a big way.

    I find it very curious that those who are fighting gay marriage so vehemently are the same groups of people with the highest rate of divorce (conservative christians). Studies also show that conservative christians consume the most porn. And, over dinner with friends last night, we were discussing a study that surveyed men, some said they were homophobic, others not. They were all then showed gay porn. The vast majority of those who were deemed homophobic reacted to the porn – in an arousal sense of the word. Fascinating.

    Now, lastly, before I step off my soapbox, here’s a fun experiment: When you see someone with a pro Prop8 sign, or know them to be a conservative christian, specifically, you NEED to ask them in the most polite and earnestly inquisitive manner, “how does gay marriage affect YOUR marriage or relationship?”.

    Chances are extraordinarily high that they will fumble their answer, cite some bizarro radio talk show hosts reasoning, and never actually tell you exactly how it affects them.


  13. SanFranon 28 May 2009 at 10:47 am

    oh, may I share a few things? These, I feel, are MUST READs for today.

    First, my dear friend’s latest blog entry on the subject:

    and, Mark Morford, a local writer here in SF’s latest column:

  14. icecycle66on 28 May 2009 at 11:07 am

    I couldn’t give a shit about any of that.

    I don’t understand the principle of marriage in the first place. Yeah I am married, but that was my wife’s deal. If you are dedicated and devoted to a person who gives a damn whether it is recognized by the state? And why?

    How does the fact that two dudes getting hitched makes them love each other more, or makes my wife love me less?

    How does two chicks getting to kiss the bride (or whatever) make the love they share any more or less valid?

    On the argument of fairness who gives a shit, the world isn’t fair and law is only made to sustain itself. It’s not fair that straight people don’t get parades and their own color. No one cares. The arguments for or against gay marriage are based solely on ones own belief system. And there is no person whose beliefs are more or less important or valid than any others. Other than mine, they all suck.

    The only reason government gets in on the deal is to make money. And when the government is trying to make as much money as possible, they have to appeal to the largest group of people possible; that is why it goes to vote. As long as one group has more people happily paying taxes, the state couldn’t give a fuck less who is or isn’t getting married.

  15. FFAFon 28 May 2009 at 12:40 pm

    LISTY FOR PREZ 2012!!!

  16. Tommyon 28 May 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Damnit list man.
    I know this is an important topic. But now you’ve done the unthinkable. Made me think about something worthwhile instead of something trival.

  17. You Just Made My List!on 28 May 2009 at 1:33 pm

    Tommy – I’m sorry, I promise tomorrow’s topic is extra stupid and trivial.

  18. LLGon 28 May 2009 at 1:50 pm

    I know exactly the “rebuttal by talk” SanFran speaks of. Rush Lim-barf and Glenn B-lech echo down the halls of my workplace, and I’ve heard the regurgitation countless times. Then there are those who can debate like a fire-tongued serpent with the most idiotic of arguments, which leaves rationality shaking its head in the dust of morons.

    I honestly believe the argument shouldn’t be whether gay marriage is right or wrong, stick with whatever the hell you believe in, but we need to emphasize the unconstitutionality of the emerging “separate but equal” mentality when it comes to gay marriage, even Obama’s stance on gay marriage stinks of it (civil unions anyone?). The way we’re headed is to …….

    goddamnit, why bother? Why can’t it just be easy to be right?

  19. LLGon 28 May 2009 at 1:51 pm

    *”rebuttal by talk show”*

  20. Xinaon 28 May 2009 at 5:01 pm

    This is a topic that has been irking me for a long time. I’ve grown up in Florida so we have gays coming out the wazoo. Let them marry, if not for the joy or marriage than at least for the joy of shared health insurance and tax breaks!

    I would not allow Congress into my bedroom. I don’t see why anyone else should be forced to.

  21. Yours Trulyon 28 May 2009 at 7:29 pm

    These comments would be a lot more fun if there was somebody with an opposing viewpoint.

    Where’s a bigot when you need one?

  22. SanFranon 28 May 2009 at 8:53 pm

    I know a couple, who fly under the guise of “Christians”… you should see some of our exchanges. They get so flustered, so fast, and then start waving the YOU’RE WRONG flag wildly, until they can’t even speak intelligibly any longer.

    Today, one of ’em spouted off something about praying for me…. blah blah blah.

    Oh, please, don’t waste any of your precious prayer time on the likes of me… but I’ll gladly take the money you’re going to tithe to a church that employs men who fuck little boys, and buy beer with it.

    When I said “it’s hard to believe in something that doesn’t exist”, she really got mad. And then accused me of following the devil.. so I reminded her that the devil is for people who believe in God…

    That ended that.

    Bigots and the fanatics are so much fun, I just wish they’d have their apocalypse and put on their nikes and purple robes and hitch a right to their fucking cosmic tollbooth.

  23. fionaon 29 May 2009 at 12:01 am

    I am in Australia, where we do not have legalised Gay Marriage either. We hear the same old argument – it damages the traditional sense of marriage, the bible says it is man and women, etc, etc. This is what I don’t understand: where does separation of religion and state come into this issue? I completely respect each church’s right to disagree with same-sex people being married within their walls, however I cannot understand when that view became the benchmark for our legal guidelines. If the argument against same-sex marriage is looked into more closely, it stands to reason to suggest that only religious people have a ‘marriage’ (ie: man and woman in the presence of God, etc). Everyone else would have a legal union, which should be defined by government, and that union would provide certain rights and recognitions accordingly. That then means that the Government is enforcing prejudice on the very people whom they are elected to represent (all members of the society). No-one is suggesting for a second that someone who does not agree with same-sex unions must have one, but it is also illegal (by my definition of anti-discrimination laws) to infringe on the rights of anyone, base solely around their sexual orientation. I do not believe in God per say, but I have no right to force the government to persecute those who do.
    Just as it would be inappropriate for government to interfere with the running of any religious organisation, it is inappropriate for any religious belief to taint the laws of a democracy.

  24. 8bitheroon 29 May 2009 at 1:03 am

    Marriage is sacred sacrament given to us by God Himself.

    Really, believers?

    Then why is it America has a 54.8% divorce rate?

    In fact, divorce rates among conservative Christians are significantly higher than other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.

    Baptists 29%
    Mainline Protestants 25%
    Mormons 24%
    Catholics 21%
    Lutherans 21%

    I’d tolerate there hate speech more if they weren’t ENORMOUS hypocrites and admit it isn’t about religion so much as it is being able to tell people what to do with their lives.

    Much like the way pro-lifers support war.

  25. Tommyon 29 May 2009 at 10:52 am

    8bithero: your stats don’t make sense. If those people have higher divorce rates then when are they all less than the mean?

  26. Montanaon 10 Jun 2009 at 5:44 pm

    You all complain but what have any of you done? Especially you You Just Made My List. It’s easy to sit at a keyboard and type: if you support gay marriage and are straight you should still be out there protesting. This is an issue of basic civil rights and we should stand together. Are you doing that? Probably not.
    These comments are really absurd: “the amount of money wasted on this fight by the religious right is sickening.”

    “but I’ll gladly take the money you’re going to tithe to a church that employs men who fuck little boys, and buy beer with it.” WTF is it to you what they spend their money on? If they wanted to donate it to Planned Parenthood of their local Gay Straight Alliance or to Obama it would be okay I guess. What you are saying is,” All you right wing crazies are wasting your money on stupid causes. Why should the government be getting in my business as to who I can marry? I can better tell you how to spend your money.” Great logic.

  27. You Just Made My List!on 10 Jun 2009 at 7:49 pm

    Montana – I’m not going to waste a lot of time on defending your attacks on me because you are basically just reiterating all of my own points but criticizing me for them, which makes no sense at all. I find it odd that you would go on a rant about my support, or lack thereof, of gay marriage when you literally have no way of knowing who I am or what I have done to support the cause. I would suggest you calm down, take a breather and maybe you can realize you are kind of arguing with people who seem to agree with you.

    At least we can all agree that Guy Fieri is a douchebag.


  28. Sore Thumbon 10 Aug 2009 at 1:25 pm

    I am one of those conservative(ish) Christians. I know, you didn’t expect to see me here. I really like this website, and after reading through some of these comments, I am both shocked and surprised at what some people say about my religion and beliefs. I, for one, disagree with gay marriage. Not because I am homophobic, or hate gay people, but because if gay marriage is made legal, Christian churches are likely to be forced to marry gays in the church. This does not show separation of church and state, it shows “state” forcing “church” do do their bidding as is convenient. That is not fair. People deserve religious freedom, just as much they deserve all rights, including marriage. Yes, it is discrimination to bar gays from marriage, and that is wrong, but it is also discrimination to force Christians to marry gays. I personally think that homosexual people should be allowed to have domestic partnerships, similar to marriage, but not forced in churches. I believe, as do many Christians, that gay people deserve rights, but they are not better than anybody else. They don’t deserve the right to impede on Christian’s rights, or the rights of anybody else. I believe that separation of church ans state should be true separation, not just when it is convenient for one party. Go ahead, send me hate mail. I don’t care, I won’t read it. Go ahead and delete this comment from the server. Hate me if you want, but hate is not what a truly open-minded person should feel when they come into contradicting beliefs. That is what I believe, and if you disagree, what can I say?

  29. You Just Made My List!on 10 Aug 2009 at 1:44 pm

    Sore Thumb – Please don’t assume I would ever delete your comment, I have never removed a single comment ever. I am glad you shared your views in an honest and adult way.

    Isn’t Christianity about loving everyone, including those you perceive to be sinners? If so, why would allowing gay Christians to marry in your church be wrong?

    We could debate the minutiae of this issue forever, but my main point is this, who cares if two people want to get married? It does not affect you or your church. It only affects those 2 people who want to commit their lives to each other. It’s a simple issue of human rights.

    We have SO MANY real and important issues to worry about and this issue is just a way for politicians to keep us at each other’s throats. It’s a needless distraction. Stop fearing that the government is going to force you and your church to do anything. Just live your life and let others live theirs. It seems so simple to me.

    I guarantee Jesus would love a homosexual just as much as he would love you or anyone else. You seem to believe this too, so don’t spend another second of your life worry about this issue, we have bigger fish to fry, like the fact that Radio Shack wants to be called “The Shack” now! (upcoming subject for this website)

  30. Redon 20 Sep 2009 at 4:35 pm

    Okay, I realize I am late to the party but I’m going to comment anyway. Sore thumb, your church or any other religious group will not be forced to marry anyone they do not want to marry. That argument against gay marriage rings hollow. Catholic churches do not have to marry two Anglicans or two Jews and on and on. Shit, Catholic churches do not have to marry Catholics if they do not want to – and I will never argue that any religious group should have to marry people who do not adhere to the tenets of that religion.
    My husband and I just got married. He is a practicing Catholic and wanted to get married in church. Several churches turned us down because of my beliefs. We were just going to do a civil ceremony, but found a church that would let us have the ceremony there. Like all other couples, we still had to get a valid marriage license from NYS prior to the wedding and have the officiant (priest, pastor, judge, whoever) submit it after the marriage ceremony. A marriage in NYS is not legally recognized without that marriage license. Everything I have read indicates that the process is the same/similar in all of the other states. The fight is not for “church marriage” for gay couples, it is for gay couples to have the same basic right to walk their asses into city hall and get that document. They can then get legally married in a civil ceremony (like so many heterosexual couples already do) or if they can find a religious organization that will marry them so be it.
    I’m going to take it that you were just unaware of this distinction between a religious ceremony and a legally recognized marriage. However, most people I talk to that are against gay marriage because “churches will be forced to marry people” are just full of shit. They are usually married themselves and know full well they had to get a state-issued marriage license. They are too cowardly to come right out and say that they hate the idea of gay marriage and try to mask their bigotry with that bullshit excuse. I have more respect for the people who just admit their position because at least they have the balls to do so.

  31. Redon 20 Sep 2009 at 4:37 pm

    That was really long. Sorry, this subject just chaps my ass.

  32. You Just Made My List!on 21 Sep 2009 at 10:13 am

    Red – Thanks for your comments. I wish I wasn’t so lazy, maybe my post would have been as good as your comments. 🙂

  33. Nikkion 20 Oct 2010 at 10:15 pm

    A completely late comment, but I heavily support gay marriage. What really sucks is living here in Utah. I don’t/shouldn’t have to explain why that sucks.

    Honestly, I don’t even bother arguing with them anymore. Let them be completely ignorant and marry their fifteen wives. Because no matter what I say, they won’t allow their closed-minded heads to LISTEN to complete and utter FACTS. It’s very un-American to ban gay marriage. What is their excuse? “The Bible says it’s wrong”? I’m a Christian, but I strongly believe God made them gay because it’s simply how they are–it’s not some “test” to resist temptation like the Mormons told my uncle. Why would God give you this life if you were just going to be miserable because you couldn’t love the person you wanted to love?

  34. james wliamson 05 Jan 2011 at 2:20 am

    Beloved brothers and sisters,
    Is the act of homosexuality an “innocent” sexual preference, or is an act that is disgraceful and countermand to the Law and the Commandments of God. The answer that is crystal clear is not given by philosophy or sociology but by the Word of God the Holy Bible. The Holy Bible is not an invention of the mind of man, it is Revelation from God. Let us see what the Holy bible says.
    Leviticus 20:13
    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
    There are a lot of people today that claim that this verse of the Old Testament does not refer to today’s Christians. The Lord was very clear as to the validity of all doctrine concerning the Old Testament in Matthew 5:17. Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true. Let us see now the Lords teachings in the New Testament
    Romans 1:26- 27
    26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27.And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
    1 Corinthians: 9

    9. I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

    1 Corinthians: 6:9
    9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    In the following verses we are taught why we MUST follow Gods Law

    1Corinthians 6:18-20
    19.What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
    18.Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
    20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
    1Corinthians 3:16-17
    16.Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17.If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
    The divine begotten words of Paul in the above verses include both promises and warnings as to the greatness or the shame begotten as a result of how Christians will conduct themselves.
    The Church’s job is to accept homosexuals and embrace them however her primary duty is to provide them with Freedom from sin that will entitle these men and women of Paradise and the Heavenly Kingdom.
    With all the love and respect that I can possibly give to all of you please know that Lord Jesus has expectations from you too! Find out those expectations by looking closer at the lives and the times of the Apostles and the history of the Church that delivered the Holy Bible to your hands for Your Salvation. The only proud claim of the Orthodox Church today besides the presence of thousands of Saints in her 2000 history, is that SHE (the Church) has kept everything delivered by the Apostles from the beginning of the creation of the Church for the Salvation (therapy) of man UNCHANGED. Also keep in mind that if you have great great grandmothers and grandfathers that were Christian before the year 1054, they were surly Orthodox Christians! The Church as delivered by the Apostles is not black, or white, or yellow, it belongs to no country, and it described as a personal journey of Salvation for each and every Christ loving individual.

    Lord Jesus did not come to teach philosophically but THERAPEUTICALLY.
    The personal experience of the Saints begotten during conduct with Divine Light is the very base of Orthodox theology.
    The term “Orthodox Psychotherapy” does not refer to specific cases of people suffering from psychological problems of neurosis. Rather it refers to all people, for it is the darkening of the “nous” (mind) a condition disabling man to ever have communion (PERSON to person) with God.

    An awesome miracle on film that takes place Orthodox Saturday Easter (ONLY) during Divine Liturgy each year for about 1670 years at the spot our Lord Jesus was born, in the Temple of Nativity in Jerusalem
    This miracle can be downloaded in -Google Greek- in case you were not able to download it. Those who see this film, can reflect back to the Old Testament and clearly understand how the fire on the burning bush was Gods presence it was Gods Holy (fire) Light.

    I belong to no organization and no one pays me.
    God bless,

  35. You Just Made My List!on 05 Jan 2011 at 7:47 am

    James – Very nice copy and paste skills. The bible also condones selling your daughters into slavery and promotes stoning children to death, so you can pretty much get that crazy, inconsistent book to support any view you might have.

    Great, you can believe whatever you want and live YOUR life however you want, but the tricky thing about FREEDOM is that other people ALSO get to live how they want and believe what they want. Grow up and stop worrying about people loving each other. Worry about your own life and your own “sins.”

    You know who would agree with me? Your pal Jesus Christ, and he’d tell you to love everyone and mellow out, right to your face. Then he’d slap you with one of his magic sandals for disobeying him.

  36. james wiliamson 08 Jan 2011 at 3:03 am

    No my friend the Bible does not condone selling our daughters into slavery and it seems you thing it condones stoning children to death. The issue I have written you about is homosexuality, it is an issue addressed to you with brotherly love and respect, I do not write books and I have never sold one, and I do not get paid in any way for talking to people about Lord Jesus and Christianity. You should check the history of the life of Jesus, you will find out that no other historical man was written about more extensively and with more detail than Lord Jesus Himself meaning All of His Miracles and deeds were witnessed and wrote about by hundreds. The fact that the date reads 2011 After Christ proves the -all might to His presence on earth- regardless the fact people are still ignored for the real purpose of His presence here. The Truth is -real life begins at death- because this here life will sometimes end….and in reality my good friend He is the ONLY ONE that can SAVE us from -the misery and pain- in the next life where no one will have any doubts that He is God and King.
    Yes we were all created free and you have the freedom to do as you please, and I on the other hand have the freedom to always have you in my prayers.

  37. You Just Made My List!on 08 Jan 2011 at 10:24 am

    James – Stop wasting your time worrying about good people in committed, loving relationships, no mater what sex they are.

    By the way, you should really read Exodus 21 if you want to learn all about the rules of slavery (including your daughter) and what to do if a donkey falls in a pit you dug.

    In fact, you should really dig deeper into your bible, it’s filled with all kinds of nonsense.

    Exodus 21: 7-11
    ” 7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money. ”

    Exodus 21: 20-21
    ” 20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. ”

    Exodus 21: 31-34
    ” 33 “If anyone uncovers a pit or digs one and fails to cover it and an ox or a donkey falls into it, 34 the one who opened the pit must pay the owner for the loss and take the dead animal in exchange. ”

    Deuteronomy 21: 15
    “If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love”

    Deuteronomy 21: 18-21
    “18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. ”

    Deuteronomy 21: 22-23 (always clean up after yourself)
    ” 22 If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, 23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance. ”

    Timothy 2: 11-12 (god hates chatty women)
    “11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.”

    Utter nonsense.

  38. james wiliamson 09 Jan 2011 at 7:55 am

    You have the spirit to fight my friend and that is admirable. You remind me of Paul the Apostle of Nations who used to kill Christians because he simply did not know! Repentance for him meant to “to give up totally ones own will, and inherit in their life the will of God entirely” I am only here to inform you and be a helping friend and not judge you my friend.

    To begin with the Holy Bible is not a philosophical book that it is understood or explained by mans logic alone, it is a Ecclesiastic one. The Holy Bible is “a word about the Word of God” that only describes the will of God. The Holy Bible is inspired by God, it contains a rational attestation about events that were seen, experienced, and learned according to the size of each person’s receptivity, but it can not be interpreted outside the EXPERIENCE of the Saints who got to know the Mysteries of the Kingdom of God. Moses who wrote the Old Testament was not called to re organize the rules of society as he found it when born, just like Lord Jesus who did the same. The laws and rules of the Jews came into being before he was born because they were free to do just that. Moses could not really change the tradition (the way of doing things) of his people but he could try to make it a little bit more humane. In Deuteronomy 21: 22-23 he was protecting the dignity of the human body that was probably left on the pole to be eaten by animals. In Deuteronomy 21: 18-21 the small population of the God fearing Jews has to be protected from rebellious youngsters, in Exodus 21: 31-34 you must first consider that a donkey was of a great value for it was the only way of transportation for man, and a law was needed to clear misunderstandings right off that could lead to killings. In Deuteronomy 21: 15 we become witness to the fact that Moses is born in to a society accepting for a man to have two wives and Deuteronomy 21: 17 the law seems to give solutions that’s caused al lot of intricate and fights that naturally came about as a result of having two wives. 21:17. But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.

    From the way you speak about the Bible I am trying to figure out if you believe that there is a God and that he is unfair, or you believe that there is no God at all. Because my letter is one of concern, I must inform you right of that there are those today who live in not so distant places that have a real life -person to Person- relationship with Lord Jesus!
    These humble words that are shared with brotherly love and respect, point out to the kind of relationship man was made to have with our Lord Jesus Christ. The following paragraphs, where taken from the book of Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos Entreaty” (Paraklitika), and it is knowledge that must be shared with all those who have Lord Jesus Christ as their Heavenly Father.

    “Those who have made their selves worthy to see God are the True Theologians. Saint Gregorios the Theologian taught that those who saw God like Apostle Paul can safely theologize, because the sight of God cleans them from all fantasy, and renders them true preachers of the truth making them explicitly different from philosophers and philosophies”.

    Metropolitan Hierotheos who is member of the Holy Synod of the Greek Orthodox Church continues in his book:

    “It is with a lot of awe and fear of God that we dare write here that even today there are Saints (that are alive today) who saw and see Christ in the Light, they converse with him, and stay in His Sight for days and even weeks. We have been blessed by God to personally meet such people who saw Christ in His Divine Light, who attest to the fact that Lord Jesus is a True God, the only Savior of man, our only hope for Eternal Life, our only way out of the dead end that we have reached”. (John 17:3) “And eternal life means knowing you (personally), the only true God, and knowing Jesus Christ, whom you send”

    Saint Gregorios (3rd century) description of his personal experience who saw Christ in His Divine Light is used as an example to describe how the Saints are able (became worthy), to see and know God in His Divine Glory.


    A notion, which Saint Symeon goes to great lengths to clarify in his writings, is that of the Divine Light as personal. It is not simply a sensible radiance—an inanimate luminosity such as one might receive from a lamp, or from the sun. Rather the Divine Light is the very ‘Person’ of the Divinity Himself: it is not simply a product of God, it is God. “Your light, O my God, is You”, he writes, and to this point of emphasis he often returns. Saint Symeon is also known to emphasise in his teachings… “If we don’t see Lord Jesus in this life…we will never see Him ever”!

    Orthodoxy teaches that it has an unbroken Holy Tradition of spiritual knowledge a way of life (in and out the Church) that leads to the mystical union with God. This mystical union is also known as Sainthood, Supernatural condition, the overcoming of mans mortality state, or being a god by the Grace of God. They also teach that it is not possible for this union to become an object of any kind of an academic study that can “discover” or “deepen” in the knowledge, because Christianity is all about Divine Grace.

    The people of the Nations belonging to Orthodox Christianity will never claim that they have discovered the road (THERAPY) for Salvation. However they will tell you that their prime directive and responsibility has always been to keep everything that was passed down from Jesus (the Holy Spirit) and the Apostles u n c h a n g e d for these methods and teachings that were put forward for the Salvation of all man constitute or sum up the Divine Will of God.

    To know Lord Jesus philosophically is to have a love relationship with an idea “philosophy” and not Lord Himself who appears to his Saints in His Divine Light as a PERSON!
    Now my brother let me ask you please: I’m I wasting your time worrying (or the time of the person you love) about good people in committed, loving relationships, no mater what sex they are knowing -the will of the LIVING GOD- in Leviticus 20:13 ?

    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Interesting relating Internet addresses you might want to study free

    Lord Jesus did not come to teach philosophically but THERAPEUTICALLY.
    The personal experience of the Saints begotten during conduct with Divine Light is the very base of Orthodox theology.
    The term “Orthodox Psychotherapy” does not refer to specific cases of people suffering from psychological problems of neurosis. Rather it refers to all people, for it is the darkening of the “nous” (mind) a condition disabling man to ever have communion (PERSON to person) with God.

  39. You Just Made My List!on 09 Jan 2011 at 9:59 am

    James – You asked if I believe in god. That is something I consider to be too personal and difficult to really explain. I can tell you that I do not believe in religion though. You seem to think that I am gay and that is where my opinion on gay marriage comes from. I’m not gay, and I only say this because I want anyone reading this to know that this is an issue of civil rights, not just my opinion because it’s “my side.”

    James, you write like you are intelligent and thoughtful but your argument is unfortunately ridiculous. You quote the bible as your irrefutable evidence (the will of the LIVING GOG, as you put it) in an attempt to illustrate that homosexuality is immoral, and yet you casually explain away passages in the bible which instruct men to stone children as outdated laws and man’s interpretation of the word of god. I’m sorry but you can’t have it both ways. The basis of your argument against homosexuality comes from a book that you are telling me can’t be trusted and leaves room for interpretation and tweaking as needed.

    I could go on and on pointing out the inconsistencies of your argument and in the bible itself, but to be honest, if the bible gives you comfort I would never want to take that away from you. As long as you are happy and not hurting anyone or infringing on anyone’s rights, then I fully support you. It’s exactly how I feel about gay marriage.

  40. james wiliamson 10 Jan 2011 at 1:43 am

    If you had believed in God you would have thank me for my first essay on 5 January 2011, for I have presented all the biblical reasons why, homosexuality is deadly to the soul (person). If your belief in God is -difficult to explain- then it is obvious that you have missed the simple fact that God the creator of the universe and all things known and unknown to man -walked the earth beside us- 2000 years ago! You see my friend you can not meet (know) God by logic. If that was to be the case then only very smart people would get to know him. It is Faith that is needed first in order to obey the Holt Bible and the Church that wrote it that carries the ancient Tradition passed down by the Apostles un changed that -cleans man from all sin- and enables them to UNITE (Sainthood) with God eternally!

    The Greek Orthodox Church teaches that: The Church’s job is to accept homosexuals and embrace them; however her primary duty is to provide them with Freedom from the type sin that will entitle these men and women of Paradise and the Heavenly Kingdom. So you see my letter is for those who have FAITH that there is a God and that they might want to enjoy being in His presence for all eternity to come. Here is -a web page address- that might soften peoples hearts and I hope make them reconsider.


  41. james wiliamson 10 Jan 2011 at 2:04 am

    Please forgive me ,
    the web side for Holy Ligth was mooved to:

  42. You Just Made My List!on 10 Jan 2011 at 1:38 pm

    James – How can I take anything you say seriously when you refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy and inconsistency of the bible and your own argument? You tell me the bible condemns homosexuals and yet you tell me the bible is not actually the word of god and there is room for interpretation. When confronted with this, you completely ignore it.

    You essentially render your entire long argument useless.